sending CC

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cFred
cFred's picture
sending CC

Hi,

I'm (still) working on setting up the FCB1010 to work with plogue bidule. When I hit a pedal after hitting a different one, I have to press the pedal twice for any change to happen. I've set up the CC# CNT1 with 0, CNT2 127 to be able to turn on/off a midifunction. I've tested in MIDI tools, and it confirms that I have to press twice, once to activate the pedal, and a second time to turn on/off the function. Any ideas?

cFred
cFred's picture

this only applies when the value is 0. If the value is 127, it only takes one push to set it to 0...

Mark van den Berg
Mark van den Berg's picture

I've tried to replicate your problem as follows:

Global Configuration:
Direct Select = Off
All MIDI channels (CNT 1, CNT 2 etc.) = 1

Preset 0:1:
CNT 1: Controller = 1; Value = 0
CNT 2: Controller = 1; Value = 127

Preset 0:2:
CNT 1: Controller = 2; Value = 127
CNT 2: Controller = 2; Value = 0

Preset 0:3:
PC 1:  Program = 3

As far as I've seen, this setup works perfectly:
The first time I press a pedal (no matter which other pedal I pressed last before that), it sends CNT1, the second time CNT2.
It doesn't matter whether CNT1 or CNT2 is 0 or 127.

So maybe your problem doesn't lie with the FCB1010, but "somthing else".
Maybe your MIDI interface doesn't pass on 0 if it thinks this is already the current value?

Hope this helps,
   Mark.

cFred
cFred's picture

Thanks for your reply Mark. 

I've set up as you've replicated, and it seems to work 50% of the time. I also tried duplicating the values:

Preset 0:1:
CNT 1: Controller = 1; Value = 0
CNT 2: Controller = 1; Value = 127

Preset 0:2:
CNT 1: Controller = 2; Value = 0
CNT 2: Controller = 2; Value = 127

With a setup like that I always have to push twice. Maybe it makes sence then that the interface doesn't pass on 0 as you mention?

Do you have a recommendation for an interface?

Thanks, 

Christer

Mark van den Berg
Mark van den Berg's picture

With a setup like that I always have to push twice. Maybe it makes sence then that the interface doesn't pass on 0 as you mention?

It would be somewhat strange, but not impossible.

There is a simple way to verify that your FCB1010 outputs a message when you press a pedal:
Connect a MIDI cable from your FCB's MIDI OUT/THRU socket to its MIDI IN socket. (You don't have to worry about short-circuiting your FCB: a MIDI IN socket works via a so-called opto-coupler, which rules out any short-circuit.)
Then, whenever you press a pedal that outputs a MIDI message, the dot in the bottom right corner of the FCB's display blinks, indicating that the message is being received at the MIDI IN socket.
So in "my" setup you should see this dot blink every time you press one of these pedals.
If this indeed happens, it is practically certain that your FCB works correctly.

And then it's also clear that the fault lies "further along the line".
Your MIDI-to-USB device is then indeed the prime suspect.
The culprit could also be your operating system's USB device driver, but I think this is slightly less likely (though still very possible).
To pin-point the problem, it's best to test as many different computers and MIDI-to-USB devices as you can lay your hands on, before buying anything new.

If the culprit does turn out to be your MIDI-to-USB device, make sure you buy one that handles the FCB1010's extremely long System Exclusive message (2352 bytes) correctly. (So this rules out Behringer's BCF2000 and BCR2000, as I already mentioned in the FCB1010 Manager manual.)
And of course the new device should not suffer from the same problem that your current device is suffering from...

Hope this helps,
   Mark.

cFred
cFred's picture

I tried connecting a MIDI cable from MIDI in -> out and: 

The dot on the FCB only lits the first time I press one of the programmed pedals, not every time. The first press is in the start of the video, after that nothing else happens when pushing the other pedals?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb3ayhajwvo5du5/FCBMIDItest.MOV?dl=0

Christer

Mark van den Berg
Mark van den Berg's picture

Just to be sure I've just tried my FCB in "MIDI loop test mode" again:
I can keep banging on all programmed presets (either CNT1+CNT2 or PC1) any number of times in any order, and the dot flashes every time.

But I should have mentioned that this MIDI loop test mode only works if the FCB's MERGE setting is OFF.
Otherwise the FCB passes anything received at MIDI IN on to MIDI OUT/THRU, which in this situation means that any message gets recycled infinitely, hence the dot will basically stay lit continuously.
From what you're reporting and your video, it seems that this is what's indeed happening in your case.

So you should start your FCB in Global Configuration mode, go to the CONFIG page and switch off MERGE (pedal 8).
(Incidentally, on my FCB "RUNNING STATUS" (pedal 9) is also OFF. This shouldn't be relevant for this MIDI loop test mode, but could theoretically be relevant to your MIDI-to-USB device.)
Then exit Global Configuration mode and try MIDI loop test mode again.

Sorry for causing this confusion!
   Mark.

cFred
cFred's picture

Hi Mark, and thank you for your very clear explanation. 

I turned MERGE (and RUNNING STATUS) to off, and everything works as you say it should with regards to the MIDI test. However, it is still the same problem with having to press twice when I try it with Bidule.  I'll test on another computer to see if the MIDI to USB device is the prime suspect.

BTW: Merry Christmas :)

 

cFred
cFred's picture

...if I have setup as you mentioned:

Preset 0:1:
CNT 1: Controller = 1; Value = 0
CNT 2: Controller = 1; Value = 127

Preset 0:2:
CNT 1: Controller = 2; Value = 127
CNT 2: Controller = 2; Value = 0

the result is like this: If I press pedal 1 it goes from 0 to 127. If after that I press pedal 2, and it is set to 0, it jumps to 127. Pressing pedal 2 and then going to 1 sets the value to 0. In this way, I can use only one press to change value. However, if I turn off (to 0) pedal 1 after pressing 2, then I have to doublepress pedal 2 set it to 0 again. Does this make any sense to you?

Mark van den Berg
Mark van den Berg's picture

If your FCB produces the correct output (which we have now more or less established, haven't we?), there must be "some entity" that does "something" to the FCB's output.
But as yet I have no idea what this "entity" and this "something" could be.

Some ideas for further testing:

What happens if each pedal only defines a Controller + Value for CNT1?
So for instance if pedal 1 only has CNT 1: Controller = 1; Value = 0, and pedal 2 has CNT 1: Controller = 1; Value = 127.
(It seems that if your problem still occurs in this setup, this proves conclusively that your FCB is not to blame.)

Do the values of the Controller parameters matter?
All Controller numbers in MIDI CC messages have standard meanings (0 = Bank Select; 1 = Modulation etc.), and your MIDI-to-USB device might behave differently for different Controller numbers. Of course you want your MIDI-to-USB device to act as a dumb relay between your FCB and your software, but your MIDI-to-USB device might be intervening in some "clever" way.

A similar question: to what extent do the values of the Value parameters matter?
Does the problem also occur for 0 versus 1, or 0 versus 126, or 1 versus 2, or 1 versus 127, etc.?
An interesting idea would be to see what happens to the output from the FCB's EXP pedals if you set them up to use the full range from 0 to 127.

An idea that (if feasible) should make all the above tests much easier:
Connect a MIDI cable between the output and input sockets of your MIDI-to-USB device and send CC messages across this connection from the "Controllers" window of MIDI Tools or FCB1010 Manager, and capture what is being returned in the "MIDI input messages" window. (In the Controllers window (at least on Windows; I'm not sure about macOS) you can set each MIDI controller directly to 0 and 127 by pressing the End and Home keys respectively. PageUp/Down (+/-8) and ArrowUp/Down (+/-1) are also possible.)
The advantage of this setup is that it doesn't involve your FCB. The disadvantage is that this might introduce additional bad behavior by your MIDI-to-USB device on the sending side.

Hope this helps,
   Mark.

cFred
cFred's picture

Hi Mark,

and thank you for all of your suggestions. I really appreciate all of your advice. I'm testing with another MIDI to USB device now, and the problem persists. The device is UM-ONE from Roland, and it has a dedicated driver one can choose. I've tried both with the generic mac driver, and the one supplied, still the same. It also added this behaviour:

Answer provided by "ossandust"
 

  • The flashing 88 is caused by ActiveSense messages coming in through the MIDI-in port during FCB startup : when powering up, the FCB executes a RAM test, which is disturbed by the incoming midi messages - so this is a firmware bug, no need to spend any dollar trying to get an eprom replacement or trying to service your unit. 
  • One more hint - if this is of any help : when you get the flashing 88, you need to press any key, then the fcb continues starting up, and works normally, except that (another bug) the display keeps flashing. So after a second or so you see a flashing 00, which means preset 1 is selected, and you can start operating the unit as usual, trying to ignore the irritating flashing leds.
  • UPDATE: ossandust has provided an altered firmware version that may solve this problem, as well as several others. Look in the files section in the ROM upgrades folder for a firmware version called "FCB_OssanDust_v1_0_0_RN"

I tried out changing the values, and it seems that every time a different pedal is pressed, it starts from 0:

I've setup like this:

Pedal 1 CNT1 10 Value 10, CNT2 Value 120

Pedal 2 CNT1 20 Value 20, CNT2 Value 110 etc.

Every time I press a new pedal, it jumps from 0 first and then to CNT1 value, then to CNT2 value. 

I'm starting to think that the FCB is the culprit, though I haven't been perform your last test. I also tested both USB to MIDI devices on a PC with your MIDI-tools, and the story repeats itself.

I'm running out of ideas...

 

cFred
cFred's picture

Sorry to keep nagging about this.....

I've been in contact with Behringer, and though they reply kindly enough the problem is still unresolved. Instead they told me to contact the Logic...and the other software companies I tried to use the FCB with...

I sent them this video to document the problem:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ygao4tj1zavmsv/Fil%2003.01.2018%2C%2018.12.10...

 

Is this normal behavior? Shouldn't the pan pot jump back to right after pressing button 2? Both CNT1 and CNT2 are activated with 0 and 127 respectively. 

If I had pressed one more time on button 1, it would have jumped back to right on the pan button. 

I've upgraded to 2.5.1E, no change.

cFred
cFred's picture

If of any interest:

Behringers firmware does not support what I'm looking for, which is stompbox behaviour when sending CCs.

When alternating preset switches in the stock firmware, value 1 is always transmitted. Thanks to Xavier at Gordius, and Mark for all help.